I couldn’t quite believe I was reading this thought for the day on BBC Radio Bristol (see below). Despite my aspirations to reasonableness, it felt uncomfortable that I was giving too much to “the other side”.
The issue concerns whether the UK is culturally Christian. Well, obviously it is. But many people who bang on about this have an agenda I don’t support, which includes things like putting Christian instruction into school.
At the same time, though, this argument seems more powerful because of a perception that the Christian heritage is actually being talked down, while minority cultures are “celebrated”. In this respect the UK is not at all like the US: it really is the case that people here wear their faith lightly, if they have one worth wearing at all.
So assuming what I said is true, is it prudent to say it? Even if it is, would it still be best not to say certain things if you know that they will be used by people with unsavoury agendas, even if they are true? Is it right for defenders of rationality to keep quiet about truths that their opponents might misuse?
Here’s the text of the broadcast:
The biologist and famously atheist Richard Dawkins surprised many people on Sunday when he described himself as a “cultural Christian”. Has the man who wrote about The God Delusion and made a programme about religion called The Root of All Evil gone soft on us?
Not really. Dawkins is a cultural Christian because, as he put it, “This is historically a Christian country.” Dawkins is simply acknowledging that the religious heritage of a culture shapes the lives of all its members, whether they belong to that religion or not.
This idea was reinforced by a recent study by Dr Horst Feldmann from the University of Bath which showed that employment levels were around 6% higher in protestant countries, where the famous work ethics has been prominent. Feldmann argued that Protestant values affected everyone in a predominantly protestant country, whether they belonged to the religion or not.
Yet people are increasingly complaining that multicultural Britain tends to marginalise the culture which has done most to shape it: the Christian one. At this time of year, that fear is usually manifest in scare stories of local councils banning Carols or nativity scenes – even though on closer inspection most of these tales turn out to be somewhat tall.
It seems to me that if even Richard Dawkins can be comfortable with the fact that this is a predominantly Christian country, then everyone else should be able to feel at ease too. Multiculturalism is too often thought of as being about minority rights, when it really should be about allowing people of all beliefs and cultures, minority or majority, to get along, side by side. But we cannot do this in a vacuum: like it or not, our Christian past frames and shapes our more diverse present.
The truth, as you see it, is always the best policy, I’d say. Else you get involved in bad faith - and that will speak against what you believe more loudly than any rational argument you make. Better to risk misrepresentation than to misrepresent.
Having said that though, there is the issue of casting pearls before swine, or saying things that people won’t hear because they can’t hear, and so will misuse. Then, though, the task is one of empathy not concealment, to understand where they are coming from, and address them there. The benefit of that is not only a chance of communication across divides. It is that one might learn something new oneself too.
Here endeth the lesson.
I agree with Mark Vernon. Don’t mask the truth. If the topic is cultural Christianity then say what you think (as you have!) :-)
If the alternative root is taken, of being tactically selective, then your view would always teeter toward the extreme.
Jauchzet, frohlocket! auf, preiset die Tage,
Rühmet, was heute der Höchste getan!
Lasset das Zagen, verbannet die Klage,
Stimmet voll Jauchzen und Fröhlichkeit an!
Specially verbannet die Klage.
I have no problem at all with RD calling himself “culturally Christian.” He’s one person. If that’s what he is, fine. It doesn’t follow there’s no problem with calling the UK “historically Christian.” It is a problem, because there have always been members of other religions, and the statement turns them into non-entities. Going further and saying simply that it’s a Christian country would be downright obnoxious. It amazes me the town councils over there allow public manger scenes and all that…It really does marginalize the non-Christians, who are just as much citizens as anyone else.
When people get famous, as has happened with Dawkins, they tend to become more “responsible” members of society, not to mention richer and more comfortable, and they say things, like enjoying Christmas celebrations, that they probably would not have said when they were outsiders. As a non-believing Jewish child in public schools, I definitively felt invaded and attacked by obligatory Christmas celebrations. I will not bore anyone with my standard diatribe about Christmas. I will repeat what I once said: the only good thing that I can mention about communism is that the bolcheviks abolished Christmas.
“As a non-believing Jewish child in public schools, I definitively felt invaded and attacked by obligatory Christmas celebrations”
Ditto.
t amazes me the town councils over there allow public manger scenes and all that They don’t so much, these days (depending perhaps what you mean by “all that”). Many people find the new regime irritatingly politically correct, and I tend to agree with them. Do you think the Chinese New Year celebrations (parades etc) in London’s Chinatown should not be ‘allowed’ by the local authorities either? If not, what’s the difference?
Dawkins has never been an “outsider”. Affluent family, public school (which in the UK means the sort of school only the very rich can afford), Oxford. He’s a consummate establishment figure, you only have to hear him chatting with his great friend the Bishop to know that.
It’s also not true to say that there have “always” been members of other religions in the UK, at least in public life (although ironically, the laws which excluded them from public life were mainly intended to exclude those who were too Christian for the Anglican church’s taste).
Oh I don’t know, if we can “celebrate” diverse faiths and customs we can leave the door open a squeak for Christianity.
Living in America it seems there is in some circles more appetite for “celebrating” Islam than Christianity. Perhaps if some Pentecostals flew a plane into a tall building things would even up, but that’s just a guess. Until then we’ll have to wait for a moment of silence in the schools as a warning of a coming theocracy, who knows what may be going through the head of some innocent child ?
In case anybody missed it the business of “celebrating” diversity is regarded by yours truly as an ugly sham, representative of the willful denigration of one’s own past, and goes beyond anything religious and the issues thereof.
The next to last sentence of the BBC broadcast quoted above captures only too well both the problem and the answer. But for now I will merely wonder how one goes about “celebrating” diversity in it’s multitudinous forms. Beer Parties, weenie roasts, catered affairs, parades, dancing and singing in the streets ? The hyperbole of the word in itself is enough to grate on one’s nerves.
“Do you think the Chinese New Year celebrations (parades etc) in London’s Chinatown should not be ‘allowed’ by the local authorities either? If not, what’s the difference?”
Completely different. If the town council spends public money on a manger scene and puts it in front of town hall, then Christianity has become the official religion for all. If all private citizens have a chance to have parades, for any purpose (Chinese New Year,Christmas, to protest genocide in Darfur) then there is no official religion.
“It’s also not true to say that there have “always” been members of other religions in the UK, at least in public life”
What does “in public life” matter? The Jews in the UK (e.g.) go way back.
Oh, I see, it’s the public financing you object to, not the ‘allowing” - yes, I agree with that on the whole. I’d be really surprised if you could find many, or even any, publicly-financed manger scenes in the UK this year. Christmas trees, and lights, yes; do they seem like “all that”?
Well yes, Christmas trees are part of “all that.” It’s amusing to listen to conservatives here rail about the “war on Christmas” being fought by people who don’t want public Christmas trees or mangers, etc. Poor Christmas, what will become of it? (Um, they need to get real Everywhere you go here, there is Christmas stuff, starting in October. I think it’s all very lovely, just not in front of town hall, thank you very much.)
What does “in public life” matter? The Jews in the UK (e.g.) go way back.
“In public life” matters because that’s what Dawkins is talking about - the cultural life of the nation, which up until comparatively recently meant a nation which was overwhelmingly Anglican (i.e. nominally protestant but in reality suspicious of religious enthusiasm). Jews go back a long way (although there was that unfortunate hiatus of several hundred years after Edward I), but have had almost no influence on the national culture, any more than Catholics or Presbyterians did. Anglican Christianity, in England, is the official religion for all (even those who profess other religions - churches are supposed to serve everyone in the parish). You might regret that, I certainly do, but it’s the case - we in England have a national religion, which is why we have Bishops in parliament. The Scots do things slightly differently.
There’s a council-funded manger in the town hall square where I live, although at least one local evangelical doesn’t seem to be able to see it, judging by her letter to the local paper. Odd, as it is huge. I think a lot of the “war on Christmas” nonsense arises from similar mystifying blindspots.
Sorry for going off-topic, but your Online Discussion Board is recommended at The Philosophy Site. They don’t appear to exist! Were they retired? I hope not: apparently “you’ll find some very sane and calm individuals”.
I don’t like this ideological tinkering with tradition, I’m not a Christian but Christmas is just the current name for a winter festival that long pre-dates Christianity (call it Yule if you’re that bothered) and the Christmas tree is hardly a Christian symbol.
Remember that the UK has neither a constitution nor separation of church and state (a fact that I think all atheists should be pleased about because of the dampening effect it seems to have on religious fervour, state support is always a killer), so elected councils can spend money on what they like. I agree with Christians and other religious types in general who say that that secular government is tantamount to state sponsored atheism. It is obviously good (to me at least) that methodological naturalism is the default when it comes to police investigations, court judgements and foreign policy (for example), but quibbling about Christmas trees in front of the town hall is just sad.
Jews were expelled from England in the middle ages and I think it quite possible that there was a time when England at least was entirely Christian, having been convinced by the point of a sword.
I’d like to know what cultural Christianity (or Christian culture) consists of? How exactly am I culturally Christian?
““In public life” matters because that’s what Dawkins is talking about - the cultural life of the nation, which up until comparatively recently meant a nation which was overwhelmingly Anglican”
But he said HE was culturally Christian. I live in a heavily Christian country, and I am not culturally Christian. I suspect RD actually has a fondness for some Christian things. He’s actually rather nice about the new testament in the God Delusion, compared to the old testament. I bet he like Christmas trees.
As for the whole idea of a “Christian nation” I suppose a country governed by Muslim law really is a Muslim nation, but Christianity doesn’t have enough of a stranglehold on the UK Ior the US) to make either a Christian nation, in my humble opinion. The whole idea of the US being a Christian nation completely offends me, but I suppose the UK is a rather different place.
Being culturally Christian is sitting listening to the Weihnachtsoratorium with headphones whilst gazing vacantly at the adventsljusstake in my window, which is what I was doing earlier, hence the outburst of German above. Being culturally Christian is having my nephew play me Good King Wenceslas on a recorder on video-Skype from his home in Hong Kong. Being culturally Christian is my other nephew borrowing his siser’s boots to be a king in his pre-school nativity play (I think the element of cross-dressing was incidental to the plot. Joseph was reportedly dressed as Shrek.) Dammit, being culturally Christian is having Christian as your forename, which I have, hence the normal pseudonym.
Being culturally Christian is in the stupid stuff you hardly notice; it mainly happens around Christmas.
Is it culturally Christian that I can sing We Wish You a Merry Christmas in Mandarin? Maybe just culturally weird. (I’ve lost the pinyin, but if you sing Woman Julia Shepherd’s Pie Lah it comes out sounding approximately right).
I think it’s just lovely being culturally Christian, and I try to have culturally Christian friends so I can go and hang around by their Christmas trees and drink their mulled wine. However, a “Christian nation” doesn’t make you culturally Christian. There are choices to be made. (And by the way, if I listened to Bach’s St. Matthew’s passion 2 days ago, does that make me culturally Christian. My answer: no.)
Hee hee. I was drinking M&S mulled wine too, AND eating a mince pie. No tree though.
True, about the Bach. But I acquired my religious music habit singing in Exeter cathedral choir (the one they let girls into) and subsequently my Oxford college chapel choir. For ages after I gave up pretending to believe.
I don’t know much about the UK, having been there once, in 1974, for about 5 days. However, let’s take a Muslim kid in the UK who is beginning to doubt the truth of the Koran. He sees Christmas everywhere; he is told that he is now part of a Christian culture. I see three possible reactions: 1. he decides to assimilate and buys a Christmas tree. 2. he feels invaded, that there is no level playing field, that he cannot betray his culture when faced with the dominant Christian/Christmas mentality and fortifies his Islamic identity and 3. he begins to think critically and to construct his own world vision, independent of both Islam and Christianity. Let’s hope he opts for alternative 3. By the way, as much as I differ politically from Christopher Hitchens, I can’t see him endorsing Christmas, even after 7 whiskeys. Hitchens isn’t respectable, doesn’t seek respectability, and I give him credit for that. Hitchens might even be capable of refusing the Nobel Prize (which admitedly he isn’t likely to win), as Sartre did. At least he’d show up drunk and offend the Nobel Prize committee. The late Norman Mailer, like Hitchens, had the talent of offending whoever could be offended. Finally, even I like Bach’s Christmas music as well as Handel’s Messiah, but that not the point here.
“Joseph was reportedly dressed as Shrek.”
I love that…
Amos and Jean:
You don’t subscribe to the pleasant custom of the Hanukkah bush I suppose. As well as non-sectarian tinsel you could have pendant Macabees and Syrian Santas and re-enact hostilities. Let each child take it in turn to be Mattahias the Hasmonean who slew the hellenistic Jew who was going to sacrifice to an idol. One could build in the subtext of those who succumb to Christmas.
Michael, The Hanukkah bush is called a Menorah.
I don’t celebrate Hanukkah. It’s a minor Jewish holiday that clever marketing promoted to get Jews to buy gifts during the so-called holiday season.
As you appear to have done, I’ve read Hitchens on Hanukkah, and I more or less agree with what he says. Forcibly circumcising males (even though it does help prevent Aids) goes against my principles. It appears that for you, Jean and I have been grouped as together as the Hebrew lobby. I’m flattered that a sweeping generalizer like myself could be classified together with a subtle mind like that of Jean, so thank you. Shalom, Amos
Yes well, I’m not really that subtle, because I’ve read Michael’s comment 4 times and I’m still not sure what he’s saying to “the Hebrew lobby.”
I recall Hitchens saying something about celebrating Jewish holidays half-heartedly because his wife is Jewish and he has kids. But now that I look at the last page of his book (I never got that far), I am…shocked. Wow, what a way to celebrate the last night of Hanunkah. It turns out I just got finished celebrating
It just gets worse–
And that’s without the part about forced circumcision. Sheesh. I didn’t much like his book, but I really do love him as an essayist.
Amos, Jean:
I don’t know the Hitchens work you mention nor indeed much about him apart from stray articles. He is not obeying the first law of life which is ‘Don’t foul the nest’ or keep in with mother-in-law. Blood is thicker than water or whiskey. I know about the menorah. Here in rural Ireland lots of people have adopted it as a Xmas decoration. Jean will have to tell you about the hanukkah bush (check Wikipedia). Is it tree-envy in a circumscribed form? There has been no Talmudic ruling on this. If its name is George it’s probably o.k.
You’re not the Jewish lobby, more the bah humbug lobby or the kvetchers enormous.
Yes, well, the Hanukah bush (I’ve decided to conserve k’s this week) is aka a Christmas tree (maybe just a small one?). Fortunately I have culturally Christian in-laws so I can maintain the purity of my own domain…and still completely indulge my fondness for Christmas traditions. The Hitchens essay is a must read–talk about Kvetchers enormous. Wow…it’s actually really amusing.
Sorry to go back a bit.
But the earlier comments about Christmas from Amos and Jean. Annoyed me off a little. A little rich one might say.
As an athiest. The whole religious meaning of christmas, I don’t particularly care about. There are many reasons not to like christmas. Commercialism, carolers, phoney-baloney christians-for-a-day, the real all year long christians, christmas day hangovers, boxing day hang-overs, spending too much time in a confined space with your family, spending too much full stop, etc.
To say that as “As a non-believing Jewish child in public schools, I definitively felt invaded and attacked by obligatory Christmas celebrations”.
It goes beyond any vomplaint about Christmas in general with complaining about the majority religious holiday of the country you live in, unless you are doing it from the base that all religious ceremonies are bull (sort of reminds me of tourists who travel the world complaining constantly about the food ). Of course it is easy to understand why as a jewish child you didn’t like christmas all that much. Sounds more like you felt left out than anything else. Bash religion and its ceremonies but bash them for the right reasons. If you had said “as an athiest, I felt and feel invaded and attacked by obligatory Christmas celebrations” sounds more reasonable but a little trite. The christian interpretation has long since stopped being dominent but it is still a major part of this country, the Uk (and the states).
A bit analgous is that when I lived in Victoria in Australia you had to play Aussie rules football in school or not play football at all (no rugby union, american football, football (soccer) or rugby league). Yeah I felt left out as I was bought up to be a rugby union player/fan. I didn’t like Aussie rule but well I managed and eventually as the society changed they started to play football and then eventually rugby. (analogy is a bit better than it sounds, as if you have ever been to Victoria you would realize that AFL is probably the major denomination religion there - no joking they take it seriously).
If I had been bought up as a christian non -believer in say Thailand, I don’t think I would have been too put out with them for celebrating their local religious festivals in their public school system and not mine. I would feel a little left out but that is the country you live in. Thats what you get when you live in a country, you get its culture and its festivals. Until you live in a truly athiest and secular country, live with it.
By the way America is culturally christian and so is the UK (OZ too). If you don’t thinks so, open your eyes.
Hanukah must be one of the weirdest religious celebrations ever. Celebrating a victory of ignorance and bigotry over the forces of rationalism and science. Sort of like celebrating pol pots take over in Cambodia (or Guy Fawkes day??) but not quite.
Gaza, If your experience of being a minority member is limited to having to play football by Australian rules, no wonder you can’t sympathize.
Aha, so it’s OK to feel invaded and attacked “as an atheist” but not as a Jew. Very interesting.
The strange thing is the way your post is so oblivious of history. If Jews are a little sensitive about this “invasion and attack” thing there are actually some good reasons.
Gaza: First of all, thank you for flattering my ego by linking me with Jean.
You confuse two issues. ” When in Rome, do as the Romans do” is good advice for all tourists and all people who live for short periods in a foreign culture.
However, I attended public schools and have lived my entire life in two countries where separation of church and state are constitutional principles, the United States and Chile. As a non-believing Jew in public schools, therefore, I had a legal right to not be obliged to participate in any type of religious festival. Whether I felt left out, as you say, is irrelevant. I imagine that an African-American child feels left out and a lot of other emotions when she sees a Confederate flag. Recall that I attended public school before Vatican II, back in the days when the Jews still had killed Christ and when many a playground fight began with the taunt: you Jews killed our Lord, Christ. The UK may be different, since there is an established church there.
As to Hanukkah celebrating an especially bloody event, well, most religions have lots of blood on their conscience. I’m an atheist myself, and I haven’t stepped inside a synagogue since I was 13 or 14. I’m now almost 62. I’m not a Zionist either, since your name suggests that you may feel strongly about the illegal Israeli occupation, which I also condemn. Shalom, Amos
amos, You’re going to have to be the head of the Hebrew lobby because (a) you said all that so well and (b) you use words like “Shalom.”
I have a long list of things I hate about the U.S. these days, but one thing I do love is separation of church and state. In my kids’ school they have “winter break,” “winter parties,” and a choir concert that carefully mixes music from different traditions. And this is in a red neighborhood in the reddest of red states (for those who don’t know our color coding, that means we’re deep in Bush country here). Separation of church and state is a beautiful thing.
Amos, Jean,
The thoughts of an observant Jew on the subject of Christmas:
http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/211/6114
Why are you calling yourself the Hebrew lobby Jean? Is this a hint that disagreeing with you is a form of anti-semitism?
Michael, Amos actually used the expression first, and I thought it was funny. I think both of us are pretty godless folk, so are amused to find ourselves in the same corner, looking at things from a Jewish perspective. Everyone should always be on guard against anti-semitism (and other kinds of prejudice), but I’m not accusing anyone here of it.
Michael: I’m not accusing anyone of anti-semitism either. However, several posts, not just yours, have been addressed to Amos and Jean (a fine woman who I do not have the pleasure to know personally and whose thoughtful affirmations I do not always agree with), which could give the impression that some people, certainly not you, believe that all Jews form a single bloc or think alike. We all know the story of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a forgery of the Czarist secret services; we’ve all heard false rumors that all Jews received an email from Mossad on 9-11 warning them to stay away from the World Trade Center; we’ve all read about how the so-called Israel lobby dictates United States foreign policy. The accusation that all Jews form some kind of secret illicit association or conspiracy is a sensitive issue with Jews, since a lot of Jews have died as a result of such false theories. Thus, as a ironic gesture of protest, I formed the Hebrew Lobby. Jean seems to have understood the irony.
That only Jean understood the joke perhaps is an unfortunate sign of the distance between Jews and non-Jews. Once again, I am not accusing you of anti-semitism. Someone asked the violinist Isaac Stern why so many Jews play the violin. Well, answered Stern, it’s easier to carry a violin with you than a grand piano when you’re fleeing the country.
That story strikes me as both Jewish and very funny.
I’m not sure if a non-Jew would find it funny.
Well….but he lumped us together after we’d already voiced a bit of solidarity. So understandable. I’m starting the Michael Reidy defense fund. Note to Mossad: leave him alone.
As far as I know, the christmas tree is but apotropaic stuff. It’s an evergreen that symbolises life and, supposedly, should help the new cicle of life (year) start in a prosperous way.
My professor of Indoeuropean studies used to say that, in addition, couples even used too copulate under the tree for the same reason…who doesn’t like christmas?
Amos and Jean:
One swallow doesn’t make a summer.
Two Jews don’t make a conspiracy.
If you were collectively addressed by me it was because your were taking the same miserablist view of Xmas. None of the other members of the Atheist Chapel were that disgruntled though I imagine they may not be that gruntled either. Gaza made good points even if he personalised the issue in a trifling way. In fact there is no need to personalise any philosophical issue; it does not necessarily enhance your credibility.
Michael: I wouldn’t be too over confident, if I were you. Two Jews can make a conspiracy. One Jew can make a conspiracy. If there are no Jews, you can be sure that there’s a conspiracy behind it.
Merry Christmas. Amos
As a “cultural Christian”, I don’t have any problem with a local council spending public money to celebrate Christmas in a way that overtly refers to the post-Saturnalian basis of the festival. Nor do I object to the same council providing services in Urdu if it makes life better for recent immigrants. But why shouldn’t a people acknowledge and celebrate its cultural/ religious heritage? The Christian heritage is beautiful and rich, and once we lose it we’re not going to get it back. The UK is turning into a big bland shopping mall fast enough already, and a manger scene or two would relieve the tedium of chain stores, chain restaurants and motorway roundabouts. Anyone who doesn’t share the cultural background can just pony up the very small sums of council tax money involved and put it down as the price of living in a foreign country, or one in which theres is not the majority culture.
Wasn’t trying to make it more personal than the relevant comments had made it (by the by I lumped you together as you mirrored the same comment - the jewish lobby is that something like the Catholic kitchen). All comment is personal to a point anyway. Just trying to make the point that Christmas is fairly cultural and you ’some times’ you have to take the culture you get (Harm principle and all that providing). We are all in minorities at some time and have issues with what the majority do.
The options:
fight for change;
wait for change;
‘tolerate’ it;
learn to enjoy the local flavour; or
burn down a christmas tree near you (really that goes under number one option but the idea appeals).